{"id":6960,"date":"2023-10-11T12:20:11","date_gmt":"2023-10-11T12:20:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/?p=6960"},"modified":"2023-12-20T12:35:10","modified_gmt":"2023-12-20T12:35:10","slug":"16-november-verkiezingsdebat-hoe-komt-er-vrede-in-oekraine","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/16-november-verkiezingsdebat-hoe-komt-er-vrede-in-oekraine\/","title":{"rendered":"Verkiezingsdebat: Hoe komt er vrede in Oekra\u00efne?"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>[et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;0vh||0vh||true|false&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;0vh||0vh||true|false&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;3vh||2vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0vh||0vh||true|false&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.21.0&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.21.0&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.22.2&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; header_text_color=&#8221;#2EA3F2&#8243; header_font_size=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_3_font=&#8221;|700||on|||||&#8221; header_3_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_3_text_color=&#8221;#C5310D&#8221; header_3_font_size=&#8221;40px&#8221; header_4_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_4_font_size=&#8221;22px&#8221; header_4_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;||0px||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;||0vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;||0vh||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; header_3_font_size_tablet=&#8221;40px&#8221; header_3_font_size_phone=&#8221;34px&#8221; header_3_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;]<\/p>\n<h1 style=\"text-align: center;\">Verkiezingsdebat in Den Haag<\/h1>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.22.2&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; header_font=&#8221;|||on|||||&#8221; header_font_size=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_3_font=&#8221;|700||on|||||&#8221; header_3_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_3_text_color=&#8221;#C5310D&#8221; header_3_font_size=&#8221;40px&#8221; header_4_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_4_font_size=&#8221;22px&#8221; header_4_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;||3vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;||0vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;||0vh||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; header_3_font_size_tablet=&#8221;40px&#8221; header_3_font_size_phone=&#8221;34px&#8221; header_3_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;]<\/p>\n<h1 style=\"text-align: center;\">Donderdag 16 November 2023<\/h1>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#2EA3F2&#8243; divider_weight=&#8221;3px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.21.0&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;|14vw||14vw|false|true&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_video src=&#8221;https:\/\/youtu.be\/QDyG4dJnBxo?si=-jNHo_UBsklINitm&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.23.1&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;][\/et_pb_video][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.23.1&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_3_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;3vh||||false|false&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;||||false|false&#8221; hover_enabled=&#8221;0&#8243; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221; sticky_enabled=&#8221;0&#8243;]<\/p>\n<h1 style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>Samenvatting<\/strong><\/h1>\n<p><strong><\/strong><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>Hoe denken politici in Nederland over het bereiken van vrede in Oekra\u00efene?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>The Hague Peace Projects daagde onze volksvertegenwoordigers uit om met een visie te komen!<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Op 16 November \u2019s avonds zaten zo\u2019n 80 bezoekers op de trappen van de Leidse Universiteit op de Turfmarkt in den Haag om te luisteren naar de visie van onze politieke leiders. Het waren voor het merendeel vredesmensen en studenten, en ook een aantal mensen die zich duidelijk v\u00f3\u00f3r Poetin uitspraken. Samenvattend werden de volgende dilemma\u2019s naar voren gebracht:<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ruben Brekelmans<\/strong> van de VVD: Poetin heeft imperiale ambities, voor Nederland biedt koersen op een vredesakkoord daarom geen oplossing. We zijn moreel verplicht Oekra\u00efne sterker te \u00a0steunen met bewapeningen en om te beginnen gedane toezeggingen na te komen. Vervelend is daarbij dat Europa en de VS hun toezeggingen ook niet nakomen. Wat we wel kunnen doen is bij hen draagvlak zoeken voor het 10 punten plan van Zelensky.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jasper van Dijk, SP:<\/strong> We moeten pal staan voor het internationaal (oorlogs-) recht. We moeten ook leren, want we hadden vooraf effectieve veiligheidsafspraken kunnen maken, en toen die mislukten hadden we kunnen weten dat het fout zou gaan. We zijn daarom geen voorstander van de van F-16 vliegtuigen, daarmee brengen we de oorlog in een nieuwe fase, namelijk dat we Oekra\u00efene van een positie van verdediging naar die van een aanvaller duwen \u2013 dat is een nieuwe strategie die de oorlog niet blust maar juist aanvuurt.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Liesbeth van der Heide<\/strong>, CDA: Onze positie is dat Oekra\u00efne moet winnen, tenzij ze zelf anders beslissen op een gegeven moment, want wij willen dat ze onderhandelen uit kracht, niet uit zwakheid. Dus we bewapenen ze zo veel als we kunnen en we moeten ook onze eigen Defensie versterken zodat we de 2% norm van de NATO halen. We moeten onze krijgsmacht op peil brengen en houden. Tegelijk weten we niet of de oorlog gaat eindigen want Rusland zal nooit v\u00f3\u00f3r vrede zijn. De vertragingen in de wapenleveranties zijn te danken aan het feit dat wapenfabrikanten met elkaar steggelen over wie de orders krijgt voor het verhogen van hun productie.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Isa Kahraman, NSC<\/strong>: Wij stellen voor om een trustfonds op te richten voor de wederopbouw van Oekra\u00efene na een vredesakkoord. Verder stellen we voor nu al een speciaal tribunaal in te richten voor de oorlog tussen Rusland en Oekra\u00efene, zodat documentatie alvast verzameld wordt<\/p>\n<p><strong>Gijs Tuinman, BBB<\/strong>: Ik heb lange ervaring als militair. Vrijheid is een gevoel, mensen g\u00e1\u00e1n ervoor. Het leger is in dienst van de politiek. Militairen werken in principe niet vanuit gevoelens, maar vervullen opdrachten. Zij weten als geen ander hoe erg het is als slachtoffers gemaakt worden. Deze oorlog is een slijtageslag. De politiek moet dit serieus nemen en actief een uitweg zoeken \u2013 meer wapens is geen uitweg.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>De deelnemers waren niet erg blij met bovengenoemde standpunten. Ze vonden vooral dat de politici te eenzijdig redeneerden vanuit het punt van de wapenleveranties, terwijl we gevraagd hadden naar hun voorstellen voor het bereiken van vrede. Ze waren teleurgesteld over het gebrek aan kennis over diplomatieke mogelijkheden, zoals de invloed van de BRICS landen, het 12 punten plan van China, de interventies van Saudi Arabi\u00eb, enz. Luisteraars vonden het verbazend dat morele argumenten helemaal afwezig leken in de Nederlandse politieke beslissingen. Uiteindelijk ontstond er een voorstel om binnenskamers nog eens een informatief gesprek te hebben tussen de vredesbeweging en ge\u00efnteresseerde Kamerleden over voorbeelden van en ervaring met conflictbemiddeling.<\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_image src=&#8221;https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/11\/poster_verkiezingsdebat_Nov16_kerkenvrede.jpg&#8221; title_text=&#8221;poster_verkiezingsdebat_Nov16_kerkenvrede&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.23.1&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; hover_enabled=&#8221;0&#8243; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221; sticky_enabled=&#8221;0&#8243; custom_margin=&#8221;4vh||4vh||true|false&#8221;][\/et_pb_image][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.22.2&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_2_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_3_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;0px||0px||false|false&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px||0px||false|false&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;]<\/p>\n<h2>LOCATIE:<\/h2>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.22.2&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; header_font=&#8221;|||on|||||&#8221; header_3_font=&#8221;|700||on|||||&#8221; header_3_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_3_text_color=&#8221;#C5310D&#8221; header_3_font_size=&#8221;40px&#8221; header_4_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_4_font_size=&#8221;22px&#8221; header_4_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;||3vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;||0vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;||0vh||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; header_3_font_size_tablet=&#8221;40px&#8221; header_3_font_size_phone=&#8221;34px&#8221; header_3_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;]<\/p>\n<h1 style=\"text-align: center;\">LU, WIJNHAVEN<br \/>Turfmarkt 99<br \/>Den Haag<\/h1>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.23.1&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; header_font=&#8221;|||on|||||&#8221; header_text_color=&#8221;#E09900&#8243; header_3_font=&#8221;|700||on|||||&#8221; header_3_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_3_text_color=&#8221;#C5310D&#8221; header_3_font_size=&#8221;40px&#8221; header_4_text_align=&#8221;center&#8221; header_4_font_size=&#8221;22px&#8221; header_4_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;||3vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;||0vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;||0vh||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; link_option_url_new_window=&#8221;on&#8221; header_3_font_size_tablet=&#8221;40px&#8221; header_3_font_size_phone=&#8221;34px&#8221; header_3_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;]<\/p>\n<h1 style=\"text-align: center;\"><span style=\"text-decoration: underline;\">event closed<\/span><\/h1>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.21.0&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;0vh||||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;-1vh||-3vh||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;|4vw||4vw|false|true&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;0vh||0vh||true|false&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.23.1&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_3_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;0px||||false|false&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px||0px||false|false&#8221; hover_enabled=&#8221;0&#8243; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221; sticky_enabled=&#8221;0&#8243;]<\/p>\n<h2 style=\"text-align: center;\">Introductie<\/h2>\n<p>Tweede Kamerleden gaan met elkaar in debat over de vraag welke rol Nederland moet spelen ten aanzien van de oorlog in Oekra\u00efne.<\/p>\n<p>Op 16 november gaan (Kandidaat) Kamerleden Ruben Brekelmans (VVD), Liesbeth van der Heide (CDA), Isa Kahraman(NSC), Jasper van Dijk (SP) en Gijs Tuinman (BBB) met elkaar in debat over de vraag hoe er vrede kan komen in Oekra\u00efne en welke rol Nederland daarbij moet spelen.<\/p>\n<p>Op 22 november 2023 vinden de Tweede Kamerverkiezingen plaats. Veelgenoemde verkiezingsthema&#8217;s zijn asiel en migratie, bestaanszekerheid, klimaat en het herstellen van een deugdelijke rechtstaat. Hoewel al deze thema&#8217;s van groot maatschappelijk belang zijn, lijkt een ander belangrijk onderwerp van deze tijd nog weinig besproken te worden: de rol van Nederland bij de oorlog in Oekra\u00efne.<\/p>\n<p>Nederland behoort tot de koplopers binnen Europa van landen die gevechtsmateriaal leveren. Nederland heeft het voortouw genomen bij het initiatief om ook F16s te leveren. Het lijkt duidelijk dat de Nederlandse regering gelooft in militaire oplossing voor het conflict. Zo zei premier Rutte op 3 januari 2023 op X (Twitter): &#8220;Ik sprak zojuist Zelensky en heb hem ervan verzekerd dat Nederland alles zal doen om te helpen dat Oekra\u00efne niet alleen weerstand kan bieden, maar de oorlog zal winnen.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>Echter, deze benadering roept veel vragen op. Bijvoorbeeld:<\/p>\n<p>&#8211; Mogen wij wel van Oekra\u00efne, als economisch, demografisch en militair veel &#8211; kleiner land dan Rusland- verwachten dat zij op het slagveld gaan winnen?<\/p>\n<p>&#8211; Honderdduizenden Oekra\u00efnse (en Russische) soldaten zijn al gedood, terwijl van een Oekra\u00efnse &#8216;winst&#8217; nog geen sprake is en ook Oekra\u00efnse onderhandelingspositie steeds zwakker lijkt. Is het wel verantwoord de Oekra\u00efeners aan te sporen door te vechten terwijl hun kansen om te winnen bijzonder klein zijn?<\/p>\n<p>&#8211; Helpen we Oekra\u00efne niet meer door nu in te zetten op een staakt-het-vuren en onderhandelingen?<\/p>\n<p>&#8211; Brengen wij met de huidige koers niet het risico op een directe militaire confrontatie tussen Rusland en de NAVO steeds dichterbij? En vergroot dit niet het risico op een nucleair conflict, een 3e wereldoorlog met alle desastreuze gevolgen van dien?<\/p>\n<p>Van harte welkom!<\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.22.2&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_3_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; header_4_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_4_font_size=&#8221;16px&#8221; header_5_font=&#8221;|600|||||||&#8221; header_5_text_align=&#8221;left&#8221; header_5_text_color=&#8221;#000000&#8243; header_5_font_size=&#8221;17px&#8221; background_color=&#8221;#eeeeee&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;2vh||2vh||true|false&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;||||true|false&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; theme_builder_area=&#8221;post_content&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><em><\/em><\/p>\n<p><em><\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: center;\">Moderator: <strong>Jakob de Jonge<\/strong><br \/>Organisator: <strong>The Hague Peace Projects<\/strong><em><\/em><\/p>\n<p><em> <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em><\/em><\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#2EA3F2&#8243; 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The Hague Peace Projects daagde onze volksvertegenwoordigers uit om met een visie te komen! &nbsp; Op 16 November \u2019s avonds zaten zo\u2019n 80 bezoekers op de trappen van de Leidse Universiteit op de Turfmarkt in den [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":7186,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_et_pb_use_builder":"on","_et_pb_old_content":"","_et_gb_content_width":"1080","content-type":"","_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[94,5,86],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6960","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-dialogue","category-event","category-ukraine"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6960","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=6960"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6960\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/7186"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=6960"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=6960"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thehaguepeace.org\/site\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=6960"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}